Rachel Williamson: Well, we just had our first lab meeting of the semester this morning, and we have a bunch of new students who just moved to Montana. And Phoebe's kind of a long-time Missoulian, so I asked her for some recommendations or advice for people just moving to Montana, and um, I was expecting, you know, like: “There are festivals in Caras Park or stuff like that. But she kind of launched into what was like a very informative but I think alarming PSA around bears and bear safety and it was fun to just watch the horror wash over all the new students’ faces, as she, um, talked about encountering bears on a regular basis and, um, when you should carry bear spray and when you shouldn't. Um, so she is very knowledgeable about all things outdoors and she may, she's training us to be better Montanans.

Ashby Kinch: You just heard the voice of Rachel Williamson, a professor in UM’s Clinical Psychology program, talking about Phoebe Bean, a PhD student in Clinical Psychology, and our guest on this episode. Phoebe is pursuing fascinating research at the intersection of psychology and climate change, studying the way Montanans are experiencing climate loss in their local communities. Her work asks questions like: What models can we generate to assess the impact of climate change on our mental health? What parts of that impact are individual, what parts communal, and how can we think more proactively about ways to address these mental health impacts in ways that might encourage models of change and community resilience?

In the conversation that follows, we track her career as a student and researcher with a focus on the way bringing interdisciplinary perspectives to bear on common questions can produce innovative models for thinking about tough issues.

This episode is part of a series focusing on the mental and behavioral health

programs at the University of Montana that serve the community, the state, and the

region. Listeners will be inspired to hear about emerging voices in the behavioral health sphere who are going to make positive impacts in the years to come!

Welcome to Confluence, where the river is always with us! 

Ashby Kinch: Welcome to Confluence. Phoebe.

Phoebe Bean: Thanks for having me.

Ashby Kinch: So you and I know each other for a while. Um, you took a class from me as an undergrad here at UM, way back in 2016. A Chaucer class. Uh, and I, I was just telling you, you know, I, I remember that fondly. It was an incredible group of students from all over campus, a lot of different disciplines. And you came in from psychology. Do you remember why you took that class?

Phoebe Bean: I, you know, I honestly don't remember why. Um, except that at that time, I was just hungry for any sort of challenge and, um, I had heard really good things about that class and I can't remember who recommended it to me. But, um, it stands out as one of my, my favorite classes I've ever taken, including my, my graduate studies.

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. But I think it also just, it was such an interdisciplinary group and in that class I could see in you and other, other folks, um, that hunger to kind of work across boundaries and not have methodologies, you know, limit what they're talking and thinking about. And I think that's been important to you just as a researcher as you've gone along. That's why I kind of started there. So that interdisciplinary interest, I think is pretty natural to you as a, as a person. And it kind of maybe impacted choices you made later as a, you know, in terms of what you wanted to do for graduate study, but you needed this research exposure. So tell us a little bit about how that happened, uh, how you first got into research.

Phoebe Bean: Yeah, so I took a Bio-psych class, um, I think the same semester that I took the honors Chaucer class, with Dr. Stuart Hall. And I was blown away and just felt deep in my bones that I needed to learn more, um, about whatever this subject was that he was teaching. Um, and so I reached out to him and he invited me to join his research lab as an undergraduate, uh, research assistant. And the rest is history. I, um, I, I really took to it.

Ashby Kinch: You got the bug.

Phoebe Bean: Got the bug, uh, started collecting data as an undergraduate and worked on a number of, of projects that, um, that really emphasized the importance of interdisciplinary collaboration, um, and kind of looking at people through, uh, a lens that is not as siloed as I think, um, we often succumb to.

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, so there's two components I really wanna lift up. The interdisciplinary one, of course, but then also just undergraduate research and how important it is to get folks involved. So one of the things we talk a lot about on the podcast is that full vertical column of experience where someone grows and evolves a research bug, like they get it, but they have to be exposed to it. Some mentor has to kind of bring them into it. But then at each level they kind of grow and find that new terrain that they work in and um, you know, so it's just something we like--we love to hear that story, right? That, that you have that first experience and then here you are, you know, five years into your PhD kind of pivoting to your own project.

Phoebe Bean: Yeah, absolutely. I think, um, the, the curriculum that UM offers for undergraduates includes courses at both the kinda lower division and upper division level for gaining research experience. And that really helped make it possible for me, um, you know, just taking credits that actually led to meaningful research.

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. Well, let's go back to the, the, the interest in psychology. That, you know, Stuart's work is on, very much on the experimental side. But you kind of knew you wanted to do more human-focused work in psychology. And so you wanted to do a clinical degree. Did you apply broadly or did you kind of know you wanted to do it at UM?

Phoebe Bean: I actually, um, only applied to UM. I had my connection with Dr. Hall—Stuart—um, and Missoula felt like home. I had no interest in leaving. Uh, I've kind of moved around a lot in my life and for the first time, felt really sure that this was the place that I wanted to, to stay and kind of grow in. Um, and I'm so glad that I did.

Ashby Kinch: Yeah and that's, I think, highly relevant to your dissertation project, which we'll come back to later. But, you know, growing roots and, and caring about the environment is gonna, you know, it does weigh heavily on your, on your project. Um, but so you wanted to do the clinical work, and then this program in particular is kind of rooted in what I learned from you is the Boulder model, um, that you're, they're not just clinical practitioners, but they, there's a strong research component, right? There are clinical psychology programs out there that are more practice-focused. But this one tries to balance. They try to get you really involved in research, but then also getting your clinical hours and your eventually your internship work. Um, so that was kind of, I'm assuming, a part of the match for the program for you.

Phoebe Bean: Absolutely. And I think, um, something that's so important to, to remember, um, just in my clinical practice today is we can't be good clinicians unless we're pulling from, um, good data and, um, we, we certainly don't want to be reinventing the wheel or causing inadvertent harm. And we can really lean on our ability through this, this training model to be good consumers of research. And use best practices to inform our clinical work. Um, so yeah, that, the Boulder model, um, I think is, is—uniquely positions psychologists to, um, to be to not only carry out great clinical work, but but know how to consume, um, the field's research as well.

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. That's excellent. I've had the good fortune on, uh, our NSF [National Science Foundation] M-HOPES grant it's called, uh, the Mental Health Opportunity for STEM Students, um, to work with Bryan Cochran and Holly Schleicher. Um, of course Bryan is current faculty in the clinical psychology. Holly did her PhD in that program. Annie Belcourt also did her PhD in that program, but works in community health. And the feature you're pointing to here, the, the, the firm research interest married with, um, the clinical practice is just to feature all their work. I mean, in talking to them, we've released a couple of episodes so people can go listen to those. Anda I like this phrase, you're using “consumer of research.” Because it is--that's the virtuous circle, right? We're doing research, but we're also informed consumers. So in the clinical side, you're staying active and you're thinking about what's the next paradigm? And I'm setting you up here because I think the paradigm you're working on is pretty incredible. Like, you've decided to focus your research on oppressing public issue right? Which is environmental devastation that we're in the midst of a, of a massive climate change. And you're asking questions about, um, what that impact is gonna have on our psychologically. Can you just talk a little bit what, what led you to that research? How, how'd you get into it?

Phoebe Bean: Yeah, um, how deep do you wanna go?

Ashby Kinch: As deep as you wanna go.

Phoebe Bean: Uh, so I grew up, um, I grew up in a family of conservationists and so, the environment has, has very much been, um, front of mind for me since I was a, a little kid. Um, I've had various nonprofit jobs in the conservation world over the years. Um, I used to be a fly fishing guide. So water temperature was something that I tracked, um, pretty regularly, um, so that the, the fish weren't stressed. Um, and we know that as the, the weather, um, and the climate shift in the summer, things are getting hotter, um, wildlife is stressed. So those things have all been kind of part of my life for a long time.

And, um, my wife, uh, is the sustainability, um, manager for, for Missoula County. And so  I think together we focus a lot on the climate and, um, struggle with our own angst about what's happening to places that we love and, and people we love, um, landscapes we love. So, so that's kind of the background, um, setting the scene, I would say.

And then in terms of my clinical work, I, I have always known I wanted to work with people and give back to my community. The path to, to finding, um, mental health and climate change has been pretty winding and non-linear. Um, but I'm so glad that I found this, um, kind of focus and emphasis because it's only gonna be more important as time moves along to take care of one another and learn more about how climate is going to impact people, um, perhaps in many similar ways, but also in really different ways. And there's not much information out there, um, right now. And I think there's a real opportunity for us to, um, to take good care of one another and build resilience in a new way, um, and kind of look at mental health differently.

Ashby Kinch: Yeah, it's, it's, it's such an important project. I'm privileged to be on the committee. I was shocked you asked me, but very glad to participate in it 'cause I'm learning so much. And I think one of the things, and I think it's so important, especially in a conservative state, um, to, to be able to talk about these questions in a way that really, like, comes home to people on, on their personal level. Anyone would recognize that, that Montana has a mental health problem, right? We, you know—It doesn't matter if you're a farmer or a rancher in the Eastern Montana or live in the middle of the liberal enclave of Missoula, right? Everyone knows it's an issue and we think a little bit about the social determinants of what drives that, right? Loneliness, isolation in the case of some of our rural communities. But you're throwing in a, an important factor that we all kind of intuit is gonna be a big part of discourse: social determinants of health, right? What are the things that are kind of outside the individual that kind of press up: family, obviously, school, economic factors. We can name a lot of those. But environmental change is, it probably is already and we just haven't studied it and it's certainly going to be a bigger factor as we go along. So I think it's important to be able to have a language to talk about that that isn't politically loaded. And I know that's a problem that you're kind of thinking about. Walk us through your survey and why it's so important and, and what, what you're up to in your research.

Phoebe Bean: So the project, um, has morphed a bit over time. Uh, right now it's a statewide survey, um, kind of a needs assessment of sorts to gather a ton of information about people's experiences with, um, emotions that may or may not be tied to climate. Um, we're looking at conscious awareness, uh, or lack thereof of climate impacts. And what's exciting about that to me is you'd think, “Well, you know, why would you need to know about people who might not attribute their psychological distress to the climate, even if it's very obvious that it is?” Um, and the simple answer is that when you're, when you're attempting to build resilience in a community, it doesn't matter what people are attributing their psychological distress to, um, if the goal is to improve wellbeing. Um, so that's really important data and I'm really excited to, to learn more about, um, that once, um, data come in. And we're also, trying, uh, our best to look at this problem through an equity lens because a lot of the climate and mental health research to date—not all, but most—is, um, centered around, uh, you know, affluent white people's struggles and what it means to them. And that's certainly not, not capturing a lot of people's experiences. And so the, the kind of overarching goal of the project is to not only, um, kind of capture people's experiences in a really, like meaningful and um, holistic way, but also inform policy decisions and, um, make sure that we're taking care of everyone and not just the folks who already have maybe more resources than other people do.

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. I think that's so important on a, a bunch of levels. But one, one of them is that the disparate impacts of climate change, themselves, are gonna be born largely by non-affluent communities, like, marginal communities. And so that it's, again, one of those obvious facts that anyone who really looks at it sees immediately. But then the other part of it, you just hit on it, is that in more affluent and your, your field has this, um, history, problem, with, with what is, uh, known as the WEIRD, right? The white, educated, industrial, rich, developed nations that most of the survey work that gets done tends to be in that WEIRD acronym.

Phoebe Bean: Absolutely.

Ashby Kinch: And so that your data is skewed, just intrinsically. Right? If you're doing surveys on ca college campuses, you're capturing a, a, a very distinct population that's actually not normal in any way across a global population. So you already have that problem. And so you're trying to address that by making sure your survey gets all the way out across the state in rural areas, uh, all through tribal nations, you know, in other words: saturating and getting data that's not just skewed toward that WEIRD category.

Phoebe Bean: Yeah, absolutely. And we know that, uh, climate change is a threat amplifier. So back to your social determinants of health, um, climate change isn't necessarily this new, isolated, um, independent issue. It is exacerbating existing health disparities. Um, and so it's, it's amplifying, um, what we know already exists. And so it's really important to, to tackle this issue with equity in mind, at the forefront.

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. And then, and then of course there's that, that, so there's the, you know, the population level, there's the individual experience and kind of in between there's that, um, discourse that springs up and you wonder what effects does, does it have? Um, you know, we were just talking, uh, before recording about a panel coming up next week on Eco-Melancholia. And so does talking about these issues, what does it accomplish? Does it accomplish to create a discourse around this that allows us to maybe start working through those issues? Um, Is it an amplifier of the grief side and is it create uncontrolled anxiety or is it a way to managing that grief? We're gonna all kind of, as a community, have to work on this collectively. We're gonna have to think about what that reciprocal kind of relationship's gonna be between, sort of, therapy, understanding, acceptance, all the things that, uh, like, clinically you would want to make sure a patient is going through as well.

Phoebe Bean: Yeah. And you know, and I think one of the, the exciting things about this project is we know so little about what might be helpful that, um, we're hoping to learn more about, um, you know, are the, the solutions or the, the, um, therapeutic interventions, if you will, similar across the board? Or are there big differences that we need to be aware of? And do we need to approach mental health in a completely different way and kind of turn things, um, on its head? And that's really exciting and kind of scary to think about because, um, and as we talked about earlier, with the Boulder model and being a good consumer of research, sometimes you have to be a, you know--break new ground, um, and you might not have a lot of research to back a given intervention. And so that's where this kind of exploration gets really exciting and learning from people what might be helpful for them. Um, I think to your question about what does talking about it do, we know that social isolation is one of those determinants of health, um, that can impact people's wellbeing. And so the more we can have a dialogue about this, people may start to feel less isolated in their experience. Because it is a politically charged topic, um, the more exposure people have to conversations about their wellbeing and how that might be impacted to climate change. Um, I see those as, as positives and, um, hopefully helping us move forward toward more open communication and collaboration, um, as communities.

Ashby Kinch: Yeah, so the timing of this conversation is in the midst of some really rich conversations in this local community in Missoula, but across the state and across the West. Um, and so you just, this conversation couldn't be better time and your work couldn't be better time for feeding some, some interesting new research into what is obviously gonna be—for your generation and, and every generation to come—a really pressing issue. What, what's gonna be next for you when you're done with the, the dissertation research and, you know, thinking about next steps professionally?

Phoebe Bean: I will need to, uh, complete my predoctoral internship. Um, and so that's similar to the, the med, um, residency match system. So an algorithm gets to churn out, um, where we move to. Um, that is a year and then I'll do a postdoc. And, um, I haven't quite figured out exactly where my heart is. Uh, I am a say “yes” person and I love new experiences. And so I kind of am constantly seeking out new things to learn, um, new people to connect with, and that really helps inform, um, kinda my soul in terms of what feels good. Um, so I'm not quite sure, but I know that I want to be working with underserved populations. And I, I have recently been working at, uh, Planned Parenthood for my practicum and getting to work with, um, an underserved population across the state, um, in a, in a very rural state, as we know, living in Montana, has really driven home the, the importance of, uh, population health and bringing in equity, yet again. Um, and trying to reach as many people as possible. So I don't know quite yet how that will look, but that's really important to me. And I think those will be kind of guiding, um, yeah, guiding themes for me moving forward.

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. So if I'm kind of hearing beneath the hearing about the practical side of it, you know, becoming a clinician, working in a local community might be part of it, but that you might be pivoting toward broader public health and community health type issues, which a, a lot of psychologists do, right? They recognize if we really want to get upstream of the problems that we see in the clinic, we gotta do some some, some hard work in the community before we see that trauma or that that experience.

Phoebe Bean: Right. And I think that the project that I'm working on with you right now has also illuminated in a new way for me that, you know, culturally in this country, we're very individualistic as a whole. And therapeutic interventions are often on an individual basis. And that's great. And sometimes that's really important and needed and necessary. And when we think about the devastation that is happening and will continue to happen with climate change, I believe that shifting the way that we think about how we're taking care of one another is really important, and, and building resilience on the community level will be really key.

Ashby Kinch: Yeah, that's, that's really well put. And I think, um, that's where, especially on the campus side of this discussion, we talk about sort of mental health and wellbeing as being these sort of paired things where the wellbeing part, it's a lot easier to talk about how important community is in the wellbeing side. But in the mental health side, we tend to interpret it individually. We tend to drop the lens down to the person, the individual person, rather than the community. Um, and we definitely need more attention to that. So it's just so exciting to have young clinical psychologists coming up and, and really thinking about these new problems. Uh, these, some of the same problems you've always had, but through a new lens and thinking about these community intervention models. So I'm just, uh, excited for the future of Phoebe Bean.

Phoebe Bean: Thank you. I am, I'm a little anxious, but also excited as well, and I, um, I'm, I'm so thankful just to kind of tie it back to the very beginning of our conversation and, um, interprofessional collaboration. Um, you know, I think it's really so valuable that you are on my committee because you are not a psychologist. And that's, that comes back to, to my, uh, strong belief that we cannot be siloed in our work, especially when we're thinking about these problems that permeate every, uh, possible human being on this planet, uh, whether people are aware of it or not. And I think we need to take a multidisciplinary approach. Um, so I think the more people from as many disciplines as possible who are thinking and engaging with this type of work, the better.

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. What a, what a great note to wrap up. Thank you for joining us on Confluence.

Phoebe Bean: Thank you for having me.