Licensed clinical psychologist Holly Schleicher kicks off Confluence's newest series on graduate student mental health, but with a twist! Holly, along with Annie Belcourt and Bryan Cochran, offered a three-part educational series for UM faculty through a grant called the Mental Health Opportunities for Professional Empowerment in STEM, or M-HOPES. In this episode, hear real clips from the trainings, including a mock conversation between a professor and student, as well as a sit-down interview with Holly about what this training involves and her biggest take-aways. Learn more about the training here, then register for the asynchronous model and complete it on your own time.

Story Transcript

Ashby Kinch: You just heard the voice of Holly Schleicher, a licensed clinical psychologist with a specialty in integrative behavioral health. Holly is a co-PI on a collaborative grant from the National Science Foundation—Mental Health Opportunities for Professional Empowerment in STEM. That’s a mouthful—so we call it M-HOPES.  

I’m Ashby Kinch, Dean of the Graduate School, and institutional PI on the M-HOPES grant.  

The grant has a simple goal: to elevate the importance of maintaining the mental health and wellbeing of our graduate students. Faculty are crucial to that wellbeing: we know from surveys conducted at UM and our partner campuses, Montana Tech and MSU-Billings, that graduate students see faculty as their main source of personal support and professional counsel.  

So it’s not surprising that when mental health concerns spring up, faculty will often be the first to notice. Our grant team has developed a 3-part training to help faculty navigate that process, which they have delivered here at UM over the last three years. And we now have an asynchronous online course—link in the show notes—that we are hoping faculty, both at UM and beyond, will register for and complete.  

In this episode of Confluence, we hear more from Holly: a conversation that focuses on some of the core ideas of the training: the importance of consistency in communication with graduate students, the role curiosity plays in developing a good rapport with a student in crisis, and the valuable role that faculty play in cultivating student well-being.  

We hope you learn a lot from this episode, the first in a series of three focusing on mental health support of graduate students. See the Confluence page and show notes for links to our episodes with Bryan and Annie.  

We hope this episode inspires you to play a positive role in building a community of care, wherever you are on your journey. 

Welcome to Confluence, where the river is always with us.  

Ashby Kinch: So Holly, just tell us a little bit about your work and what you do. What are you trained to do? What's your work in the community and what's your involvement on campus and these research projects?

Holly Schleicher: Yeah, thanks for asking. So I'm a licensed clinical psychologist and I got my training here at UM, in the psychology department. Really, kind of, the thread of my work has been in health psychology and the mind body connection. So in graduate school, I worked with chronic pain and I did my dissertation with, um, actually integrating departments with integrating public health and psychology. Um, we put together a pilot study of tobacco cessation treatment for depressed college students. Um, and then when I graduated, I went to, um, the University of Wisconsin for my internship and fellowship. And there I had the opportunity to work in integration, both in primary care and in a major medical hospital. And that's, I would say, where I really kind of fell in love with, um, behavioral health integration and had the opportunity to work in, you know, these gold standard institutions for integrating behavioral health into medical settings.

Ashby Kinch: And of course that's how I came across your work. That's how I got connected to you and  we brought you into the team that was developing the M-HOPES grant because of this integrated behavioral health model. Tell me a little bit more. I mean, for me, the way I understand the analogy is that we're kind of thinking about professors in a research-context, as being an analogy to a doctor in a medical setting, where we're not expecting a doctor in a medical setting to deliver, uh, clinical behavioral health intervention. But we, it would be best, it'd be most efficient and effective if they recognize signs, had simple tools, and then could follow up with the patient and refer. And we're kind of thinking of that same model on the academic context.

Holly Schleicher: Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I, I got brought in because of this, um, my, my background with integration and, you know, in a medical setting that looks like bringing behavioral health providers right into the medical setting. At the highest level of integration, you are working right alongside each other. You're not on a different floor, you're not in separate buildings. But the behavioral health provider is, is, is right there working alongside the nurses and in primary care providers. Or of course this can happen in specialty clinics or hospital settings as well.

Um, and yes, exactly. We don't, um, necessarily expect faculty members or medical professionals to be skilled to deliver the same level of, um, you know, assessment or treatment that we would as trained psychologists. However, um, we wanna provide access to care. So I think that for me is like, is the, kind of the, the shining star here is providing more access to care for, um, our whole population, whether you're talking about a medical population or a student population.

Um, so by having a provider, you know, on site, you're providing more access for folks who wouldn't access mental health care otherwise. So when we're talking about the HOPES grant and look and thinking about, um, behavioral health on campus, um, it is providing education to faculty about how to recognize the signs and symptoms of behavioral health problems, how to communicate about these, how to offer some resources, you know, maybe how to offer some kind of standard wellbeing check-ins or, um, advice perhaps.

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. And that's so important to this project because what we're trying to come up with as a model to, um, again, de-stigmatize mental health as a topic. Um, and of course, you know, part of the challenge here is we know faculty are seeing more mental health and behavioral health problems among their students. They're reporting that. But on the other hand, they also feel, um, ill-equipped. And, and they're not, not even wanting to open that door.

So our training is in some ways about just making them more comfortable and asking certain kinds of questions as easy as check-ins about wellbeing. You know, “have you exercised?” And “how are you feeling?” And, and finding ways to destigmatize that conversation. By modeling it yourself, you know? “I haven't gotten out to exercise, but I'm going tonight,” you know. “What do you have been up to?” So that you're bringing the, the threshold down a little bit to have those kinds of conversations.

Holly Schleicher: Yep. Exactly. And I like that idea of this modeling. And so in our workshops we are talking with faculty about their wellbeing and their ment--we're checking in with them and having them think about “what's my emotional response to this student?” “How am I taking care of myself, you know, in a, in a system that, that might be stressed?” So, um, both thinking about themselves and about their students.

Ashby Kinch: I think that's so important because, you know, a lot of the faculty we're hearing from, especially in the STEM, uh, area, they do want to be able to refer quickly. A lot of times they just want to know, who can I call? Who can I send the student to? But some of that work that needs to be done is actually right there in the room. It's about the relationship between the mentor and the mentee. It's about the health, uh, and mental health and positive behavioral dispositions of those two people as they work together, often over years.

Holly Schleicher: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think this is where, again, looking at this, you know, kind of the medical provider and the patient, and the faculty member and the student, there's some overlap there. Because typically most people go to their primary care provider for their mental healthcare.

Um, you know, research shows about half of the population with mental health problems go to their primary care provider. Because they feel comfortable there. They have a relationship there. It's non-stigmatizing. They don't have to find a whole new provider. There's that trust built in. And I think we can see that in faculty relationships too, especially at that graduate level where you're working closely together, you're seeing that person multiple times a week, you're able to recognize signs and symptoms, you notice changes in behavior. And hopefully there's some level of trust or relationship already built, um, so that you can be a person, again, that's, that's not meeting all of their needs, but is able to respond when you're concerned.

Ashby Kinch: But on the, on the student side of that, and we're seeing a little bit of this in our survey, there's nervousness. Right? Because there's the stigma of vulnerability around showing a weakness or suggesting you're not, you know, ready for the challenge. And STEM education, especially at the graduate level, is intense. You know, intense deadline pressure, intense, you know, funding, pressure coming in. So a lot of this is about faculty being aware enough that they have to kind of open that door cuz they can't expect the student to open it for them.

Holly Schleicher: Mm-hmm. Yep. Exactly. Exactly. And you know, there is, there's some power differentials here. And again, in both settings, medical and in a faculty setting. And students are, they're being evaluated all the time. And so I can, I can understand that hesitancy. And so that's why when we think about, um, kind of system-wide changes, so not just between that faculty and student, but how are we responding as a university system? Or how are we setting up the conditions for checking in about wellbeing, um, being more transparent about mental health problems? That's gonna help support that. And we see that in medical settings too. When we have behavioral health providers integrated, we're sending a message: We are approaching this as a team, you know, your whole self is welcome here. Um, so that is where I think we have to think about that system level as well.

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. We ended up settling on this, um, title Nurture New STEM Scholars. But at one point we were calling it the Holistic Mentoring Project. And that's a key concept in your work. That you just used that term. That's why I’m kind of picking it up. Our faculty, again, might be tempted because of their field and, and the focus in STEM field on productivity and output, to compartmentalize. They might be tempted to compartmentalize the intellectual abilities and the research abilities from these other things.

But one of the mantras in our project is, um, mental health, mental wellbeing is a resource for research. In other words, it doesn't get done unless you've got that, uh, underway. And the reverse is true as well, that, that when things reach a crisis point, productivity goes down. So we also, we need to kind of marry those two objectives a little bit more.

Holly Schleicher: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when we think about mental health, we're talking about emotions, we're talking about thoughts, feelings, behaviors, motivations. We're talking about expectations. And if you think about all of those, that is inherent in, in our work that we do. So a graduate student, if they're not as motivated or if they're bogged down with a lot of negative thinking or they're feeling really frightened or anxious all the time, that's gonna affect their work, that's gonna affect their productivity. Um, so we have to look at that, at all of those components.

Ashby Kinch: And the faculty might see that. Because they're working up close, they might see those signs. And we're trying to kind of train them to be a little bit more attentive to those personal dimensions that might be interfering.

Holly Schleicher: Yep, exactly. Yep. So if they notice a change and you know, a student isn't turning in projects as planned or according to a deadline, or they're not making movement on a, a thesis or a dissertation or, um, they're showing up late or they're more withdrawn, um, faculty are in a perfect position to be able to tune into that.

Ashby Kinch: And get curious about why. In other words, not immediately go to like “this, you know, the student's a slacker” or, you know, “they're, they're not meeting our standards.” But get curious about what might be going on other than not being motivated, you know, for the work itself or something like that.

Holly Schleicher: Yeah, yeah. And that fits with this um, kind of paradigm we've set up for the workshops, which is the inquire, support and connect paradigm. And that first part is inquire. And you know, I think when someone is acting, you know, differently than expected or we’re frustrated with productivity, we probably do jump in our minds to “Hey, what's wrong with you? What's going on? I want this to be different.” And we get stressed. So that's where our own emotions come in.

And so we're really encouraging, you know, figure out what's happening in yourself and then how can you inquire openly with this student? You know, “I'm curious about what's happening for you here. I'm curious about this part of you. I'm curious about this part of your life that makes it difficult to, to, you know, get to class on time or get to our lab meetings on time.”

Ashby Kinch: But that, that's a way of anchoring that discussion in a more affirmative positive, uh, engagement rather than a negative defensive engagement. Well, one of the fun things, and this is a good segue into this that y'all do in the workshops, are these play acting role scenarios. Um, what, what's that all about? Why, why have faculty play out these communication scenarios where they have to be both? Right. They have to be both the student and the, and the professor.

In tape:

Professor: Hey, I miss seeing you. I was hoping you might have to some time for us to catch up on how your project is going. Is this a good time?

Student: Sure. I haven’t been able to get the results written up and I know I was supposed to do so in March. I’m sorry.

Professor: I’m guessing you have a lot on your plate right now. How can I help?

Student: Yeah. Well, the class I’m TAing for, Anatomy and Physiology, is really taking up a lot of time. I’m developing new lab quizzes for the students and it seems like I’m working 10 hours a day just on that. I’m really sorry I haven’t gotten around to writing up the results.

That class is tough for everyone. But I think I can help you. I have a number of quizzes…

Holly Schleicher: Yeah. You know, I just, I think that we can, we can talk about these skills and then there's putting them into practice. And for all of us, when we have the opportunity to really practice that in real life or in these kind of mock settings, um, it, I think it shows us how difficult that can be and what comes up for each of us.

So I watched one of the dyads in one of our recent workshops, and it was great because when one faculty member was role playing themselves and then the student, and then I could check in with the student, um, which was actually a faculty member. Um, you know, “how did that feel? Like, how did that delivery feel to you?” And they could say, you know, “that felt a little intense, or I felt a little judged.” So you can get feedback from the other person. Um, you, and then the other faculty member was able to kind of tune into: oh yeah, this is what, what I was feeling inside. And I was feeling pretty frustrated.

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. What does it feel like to be on the other side of it and, and have that mental cognitive switch?

Holly Schleicher: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep. Exactly.

Ashby Kinch: What has been, you know, from your perspective, one of the most interesting things? I mean, you gave a good example there of you watching a, a, a dynamic. But what have the faculty brought to the table? What kinds of problems and issues? And, and how has that shaped the way you deliver the workshops?

Holly Schleicher: Yeah, yeah. Well, I, I think it's, it's just been a real pleasure getting to know the faculty. And that the faculty are coming in really eager to learn about how to communicate with students, um, how to learn burnout and wellbeing. Um, so I, I've just really enjoyed that piece of it. And, um, that, you know, they're coming in with a lot of questions about difficult scenarios. You know, students that have been struggling for a longer period of time. Um, scenarios where maybe there's a little bit more resistance to getting help or feedback.

So we've really had to, um, kind of think about how to, um, maybe layering is the best way, you know? Where you start and then where you go from here with different responses. So we've had to kind of, um, Provide a little bit more of that dynamic in, in the moment, um, training with the faculty, given what they'll bring up.

Ashby Kinch: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I guess to dig into that a little bit, I think one of the things that working with the three of you and other, um, professionals in mental health space across counseling and, and clinical psychology, that I've learned is something like, you know: these are not ‘solve’ problems. You don't come into that conversation and walk out with a solution. That you have to be in it for the recursive, iterative that it is. And so you were just talking about layers, I mean, you know, you might have a student who is dealing with something very complicated and, and the, you're gonna have to peel it back one by one. You're not gonna get there all at once. Right?

And and I think that's a tough thing. I, I think any faculty member, um, wants to pose a solution. But I think it's particularly probably the case with STEM faculty members that they want a sort of designed solution. You know? Let's figure it out.

Ashby Kinch: Let's get it done. Right? And some of the work that has to be done is actually kind of just this recursive, get in the trenches, work it out over time.

Holly Schleicher: Yeah, and I think that's, you know, the really positive part about doing the role plays as a group is that, um, a lot of the feedback from, you know, our initial role plays is: ‘I think I went to problem solving too soon.’ And I mean, just for them to be able to recognize that they don't have to get it right the first time or second time, or tenth time. But just to recognize: “Hey, I think I went to this too soon. I didn't listen enough, I didn't ask enough questions.” I think that's been really powerful for faculty. And really thinking about this as a, um, your relationship building with the student and that there needs to be a lot of connection in order for that change to play out over time, you know? But yes, I think as a society we often, you know, we wanna go in and I've got a tool and I know that this tool can fix this problem. Um, so let's use it. But oftentimes, that's the wrong tool. Like that, that approach is not the right tool to use.

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. And but then the flip side is, and now I'm thinking it out loud. I, I don't want to throw my STEM colleagues under the bus. Some of my STEM colleagues are actually the most patient, um, people I know in terms of, um, sort of recognizing--I mean, science itself is an iterative process. There's a lot of failure involved. So if you can kind of activate that part of the STEM experience, right? Which is frustration and meeting encounters and, and getting around them and being patient. Some of the virtues of being--kind of can apply over here. But you have to activate them in a way that also is connected to these other skills: communication, responsiveness, certain degree of empathy.

Holly Schleicher: Mm-hmm. Empathy for sure. Yeah.

Ashby Kinch: Well, so anything else? What, what have revelations, uh, ideas, thoughts you've had as a deliverer of the workshop? Have you gotten much out of it, you know, professionally, personally?

Holly Schleicher: Oh, definitely. You know, um, one of the workshops that we deliver is on burnout and, and on the flip side, wellbeing and how to enhance wellbeing. And, um, I think this is, you know, information that all of, especially in this post-Covid world that we live in, can benefit from that. And that's been of interest of, of an interest of mine starting, um, back when I worked in a medical setting and you saw the time pressures on providers and, um, you saw the, um, you know, these short appointment times, people back-to-back, not always having all of the resources that they need. Um, so you saw the burnout there, for sure. So the faculty members, you know, really recognizing that they're going through, they're, they're holding and caring a lot too, and there's a lot of system demands and pressure. Um, they, they have their own productivity, right? Which are often tied to the students, which are, you know, makes it quite complicated.

Ashby Kinch: And that is kind of a unique, yeah. I don't wanna say unique, but that's a, a feature of STEM education, you know, that these grants, professors bring in these grants, a lot of money, but the people delivering are the graduate students. There's a, a pressure there that, that, especially a junior STEM faculty member is carrying into their lab. So just being aware of that is probably a pretty big change um, you know, of, of perspective to just maybe hold off the part that's personal and allow that student to not feel it, you know, as a direct.

Holly Schleicher: Exactly. Yeah. I think there, there has to be a bit of a buffer there.

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. Right. Good. That's the best word: buffer.

Holly Schleicher: Because, because anytime we put pressure on someone, to perform better, they're likely not going to, you know. That's gonna create more anxiety and performance will go down.

Ashby Kinch: And the pressure to perform is, is the pressure to perform, but then don't add to the pressure to deliver for somebody else, right?

Holly Schleicher: Exactly. Right.

Ashby Kinch: In other words, they’re also, you know, feeling the pressure of somebody else's pressure, you know? Secondhand or derivative pressure.

Holly Schleicher: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So in doing these workshops, you know, I've been able to dig into the literature and wellbeing more, which has been really enjoyable. And, um, during Covid, I started doing some presentations for medical providers on mental health, wellbeing, and coping with all the stressors of Covid. And so it's been, it's been nice to be able to take some of that and adapt it to faculty. Um, and then also just kind of learn about kind of, again, these layers of wellbeing, you know, so we have kind of our basic, you know, meeting some of our basic needs like our, um, nutrition and, um, sleep and getting some exercise. Um, and then if we kind of go a little bit deeper into that, um, the Center for Healthy Minds, which is out of the University of Wisconsin, Madison, um, they have these four pillars of wellbeing, which are awareness, social connection, insight, and purpose.

Holly in training:

So awareness, which is, um, a heightened, flexible, attentiveness. to your surroundings, and that can be your external surroundings. And that can also be your internal experience. And that's exactly what we did in that mindful pause was just bring a little bit of attention to your body and your breath.

We can also do that by noticing like we could look outside and notice that the sun is shining Um, that there are some clouds in the skies that, you know, some of the trees look green, for example. That would be another way to be attentive. It might be in your mentoring relationship, right? It might be attentive to what a student looks like when they come into your office, or how you feel when a student comes into your office, or what happens to your, um, physiology as you're meeting with a student if you become more stressed or more relaxed.

Another pillar is connection.

Holly Schleicher: And I think really, um, having these discussions around how does your, you know, your values, what matters to you, kind of your purpose in your work, um, being able to tie that to also working with your students and how that's important to them too. I think it's an opportunity to get to know yourself and get to know your students in a much deeper way, in a more meaningful way. Right? There's a lot of meaning and purpose in being insightful about your emotions and being aware of, of your emotions. You know, there's, there's a lot of meaning to that. So I think there's the potential, um, for some, you know, depth in those connections.

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. And I think, I mean, you know, to loop back to your point about the pandemic, that's something we all experienced together. You know, we had different responses to it, but we've, we've kind of collectively gone through this difficult time. Um, it's made us more aware of financial challenge. Um, you know, personal challenges. Um, you know, we, we all hope that we're good enough to kind of relativize that and recognize even if we're struggling, maybe somebody else is struggling more. And that's really, you know, part of, uh, a kind of moral and ethical awareness of, of what you can bring to someone even when you're hurt and and hurting. Um, I'm rambling a little bit, but I'm kind of trying to get back to this point cuz I think, um, we know that our graduate students, um, aren't being paid enough. We know that they're, they're especially in the Missoula market, but this I'm sure is happening all over the country, um, you know, the, the housing costs are up. Cost of living is up. There's a lot of external, external pressures. Um, and we can't solve all those. We can't solve all of at the one, even if we are aware of them and we're trying to ameliorate them. We can't solve them.

So the things we can solve, the things we can control are the things that fall in this wellness, uh, initiative, the sleep and the nutrition, the basics. The core things. And some of the literature we're finding, um, on the grant is that some of the long-term studies that have been done of, um, PhD students, again, this isn't the ones that dropped out. This is the ones that complete. But those that complete look back at their time, they talk about social connection. They talk about, um, the, the culture of the program that they came from. They don't talk about, even when they're talking about positives and negatives, even when negatives are brought up, they don't talk about money. They talk more about this mentor that was a real pain or, yeah. You know, the external factors tend to be much smaller, um, than the internal factors. Or the external factors that have to do with culture are are the ones that they really zero in on. And so I think that backs up some of what you're talking about, this sort of social connection. You know, awareness, social connection, insight. And what was the last one?

Holly Schleicher: Purpose. Right.

Ashby Kinch: Yes. So a lot of STEM faculty member will have a strong purpose. They know why they're doing it. Um, and, and same with the students, but they wanna connect that to values and relationships too. They want that social connection.

Holly Schleicher: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that, um, I love that, that feedback from the research, because I think it just supports who we are as you know, we are, um, we are social beings, right? We are all seeking for connection. That's an important thing. And so if you have, within your system, if there's a lot of discord in a department or, um, there's not opportunities for graduate students to get together, I think a graduate students during the pandemic really struggled with this. They didn't have their cohort for support. They couldn't go out and celebrate. I mean, going out and celebrating a dissertation or a thesis or comprehensive exams, I mean, those are really important for, you know, completing the stress cycle that comes up in all of those really stressful pieces.

Ashby Kinch: As the Great American basketball philosopher, Jalen Rose, said: “More champagne in the campaign.”

Holly Schleicher: Exactly.

Ashby Kinch: Gotta get the champagne in the campaign. Well, and, and partly, um, what we're finding out is, um, you know, the work we're doing on the faculty side of the grant, you know, there's some work on the, on the student side of the grant. What we're talking about here today is on the faculty side of the grant. And it's where the two meet is where culture is formed. And we do have some, some, you know, small, uh, uh, funding opportunities for, um, you know, faculty and students to pitch ideas to kind of spend time together mm-hmm. In these, in these informal non-academic context to kind of reinforce those social connections. And one, uh, STEM program, um, bought, or I, I bought 'em on the grant, but we bought ice cleats. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, for listeners, this wouldn't make a sense much sense to if you're from the south. Right. But, um, if you out University of Montana, there's ice everywhere, uh, in the winter, especially winter like we've been having. But they're also beautiful trails right outside the door.

And so they're taking, uh, faculty and graduate students are coming together and little groups of 6, 7, 8 getting these ice cleats and going up, uh, Mount Sentinel, in the heart of winter. And so gets you outside, it turns a negative into a positive. It gets you doing something together where there's some problem solving and some support and everyone's looking out for each other. It just works on every level as a great kind of bonding activity.

Holly Schleicher: Absolutely.

Ashby Kinch: So we're hoping we're gonna see more of that kind of creative thinking about ways to get people out of their, um, out of their habits, you know? And just some new, interesting, good habits.

Holly Schleicher: Good. Yeah. Yeah. I love that.

Ashby Kinch: Well, anything else you wanna talk about, about, you know, anything that's come up for you in the, in the workshop trainings, changes you, you, maybe even the next time you do it. You're on the second iteration this year?

Holly Schleicher: Yeah. Yep. We're on the second iteration. You know, I think what we have recognized is the need for some follow ups with the faculty that we have started the workshops with. So I feel like in a lot of ways we are providing, um, really good information and we're getting them thinking. And I feel like we could go to a next level of consultation around difficulties that arise, really building those communication skills.

So I think that is one exciting area that we could expand to, is, um, you know, maybe some booster sessions, for example. People have had time to go out and practice some skills and try some things differently. What are, what do they need? All of these are skills. Right? All of them are things that we need to practice. Things that we need to work on. Reflective listening and showing empathy, and um, checking in with our emotions, building wellbeing plans. Um, those are all things that, um, take practice.

Ashby Kinch: Yeah, I was gonna say, you gotta go out and do 'em. You get, you get the abstract idea, but now you've gotta go execute it.

Holly Schleicher: Yeah. And you have to do it over and over again. Yeah. So, um, you know, these aren't easy skills to learn. Um, they might seem simple, you know, in, you know, when you're first talking about them. Um, and in the moment, and this is another reason why I think the role playing is so important in the moment, you see how difficult that is.

Ashby Kinch: Difficult, yet at another level when it's real. When it's real. Yeah. All of a sudden you're, yeah. All the emotions are--your body and your stomach and you've got that pit and now you've gotta talk to someone about something really hard, right?

Holly Schleicher: Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, I mean, I think we'd like to do a little bit, you know, I think we'd like more time. Um, but, you know, time is, time is tight for everyone. So…

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. One of your workshops is called…

Holly Schleicher: Yeah: You Don't Have Time for this Workshop.

Ashby Kinch: Very funny. You know, very self-referential.

Holly Schleicher: Right, right, right. So, you know, I think there's that and, um, I, you know, I think we've learned the more interactive they are, I think the more fun they are for us as the workshop leaders and for the faculty members. And um, so it's really nice for us to be able to provide some space for them to, to be able to reflect on what they're learning.

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. And and part of like what we're doing here, might be, um, will be part of, um, our dissemination out to our partner institutions as we scale up. And what you're talking about is actually is a great segue cuz you know, we're what you're talking about, you know, at any given institution, they're gonna be people, most research institutions are gonna have a clinical psychology program or faculty that have some of that expertise. But what, what we think we can provide is a really compelling training. And then a model for how you adapted to your campus. And some of that might be, asynchronous materials, where we take some of the video and, and, um, you know, PowerPoint materials. But then the local con context, they do the follow ups. They, they have people look at, uh, one of the trainings and then gather together and then gather, discuss it. And practice it. So, because it's where that, that's where the rubber meets the road is when faculty get together themselves, practice some of those skills, talk about cases they've experienced. And dynamically adapt that to their own context.

Holly Schleicher: Yeah. Yeah. And I think those opportunities, just like we talked about, you know, opportunities for informal communication or informal socialization, that's important for the faculty to have as well.

So I hope that with the, with these workshops, we're building that social connection too. We're we're, having people think about the meaning of these relationships with their students, the meaning of what it is to be a faculty mentor. And I think all of that is really positive for wellbeing. Um, because we know when we're feeling burnt out, we're physically and emotionally exhausted and we're more disconnected from our work and, and from the people that we work with. So the more that we can build those connections among faculty, among students and faculty, um, within, within campuses, I think that's really helpful.

Ashby Kinch: Yeah. Wonderful. That's a great place to wrap up. Thank you very much.

Holly Schleicher: Yeah, thank you!